Regenerative Health with Max Gulhane, MD
I speak with world leaders on circadian & quantum biology, metabolic medicine & regenerative farming in search of the most effective ways of optimising health and reversing chronic disease.
Regenerative Health with Max Gulhane, MD
82. Decentralising Food Production with Nguni Cattle & Regenerative Agriculture
Justin Crawford runs runs Balgowan Beef Co in the KZN Midlands of South Africa. He runs indigenous African Sanga cattle breed Nguni, in an intensive rotational grazing setup and sells this fully grassfed beef direct-to-consumer.
We discuss the future of decentralized food production, why Nguni genetics are so suited to chemical-free & regenerative practices, quality of Nguni beef, key lessons operating a direct-to-consumer operation and much more.
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TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Regenerative Agriculture With Nguni Genetics
16:58 Intensive Grazing and Direct Consumer Sales
29:06 Grass-Fed Nguni Beef Quality and Marketing
39:12 Grass-Fed Cattle and Marketing Strategies
49:49 Optimizing Cattle Genetics for Environment
FOLLOW JUSTIN & BALGOWAN BEEF CO
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Whatsapp (for meat orders) - +27846572764
FURTHER LISTENING ON NGUNI
My Nguni interviews - https://www.youtube.com/playlist? list=PLrv4qp8WwfQG8lBXPL2BFx0sBAwA-jFbo
NGUNI COMMUNITY
Nguni Association of Australia - https://www.nguni.au/
Nguni Australia Instagram - https://instagram.com/nguni_australia
Nguni Association of South Africa - https://nguni.co.za/
Nguni Facebook Group - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ngunicattle/
Nguni Australia Facebook Group -https://www.facebook.com/nguniaustralia
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Okay, welcome back to the Regenerative Health Podcast. Today I'm sitting down with a very special farmer and pioneer, I think, in the world of regenerative agriculture, and it's Mr Justin Crawford. And the reason I wanted to get Justin on to speak with me is because he's one of the unique farmers that is bringing together three disparate areas that are highly related but very, very important, in my mind, for feeding communities, the most nutrient-dense food and, I think, has the potential of eventually feeding the world, and these are regenerative farming, nguni genetics and direct-to-consumer meat supply. So, justin, thanks for joining me.
Justin Crawford:Yeah, thanks, Max. Yeah, thanks for the invitation.
Dr Max Gulhane:So tell us about you, where are you located, and a bit about the operation that you're running.
Justin Crawford:I'm located in the KZN Midlands in South Africa. It's about two hours away from Durban, basically between Durban and Johannesburg. It's a high altitude area, so 1,200 to 1,600 meters above sea level, a high rainfall area in summer. And then cold winters, cold dry winters. So yeah, that's where I'm located.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah.
Justin Crawford:I'm trying my best to deal with this.
Dr Max Gulhane:Speak to the Nguni breed, because a lot of farmers in Australia or America even in South Africa themselves yourself basically turn their nose up at the idea of a medium-framed animal with speckles and all kinds of crazy colors and horns. So talk to us about what you see as valuable in this breed.
Justin Crawford:Well, for what we're trying to achieve, I think the Nguni is perfect because we're trying to raise an animal on grass its whole life, basically. So that's what we try to achieve. And then Goonie, through natural selection, basically that's what they've been brought up doing. They've been naturally selected to survive on grass and survive through droughts, survive through disease, without too much outside inputs and interference. So we went for that minguni purely because we think they are suited to what we try to achieve, which is obviously not the norm. Most people just breed, just don't eat lots. So we try to achieve the whole, you know, the whole life cycle. Basically we try to. We try to raise the calf, wean the calf, basically, you know, take that calf from weaning all the way to finishing on grass, um, and I think the goonie is is well suited to that. So we haven't made a mistake as far as that's concerned. I think it is one of the best breeds for that type of system and, yeah, that's one of the reasons why we chose it.
Dr Max Gulhane:And compared to, say, perhaps neighbours or other friends using other breeds. I mean, I've been learning about Bonsmara and that breed that was essentially engineered through human selective breeding. So compare, if you can, in your experience, the advantages and differences between Nguni and some of these other breeds.
Justin Crawford:Well, I've actually got Gonswara cattle as well. You know, I've ended up buying, you know, at auctions where I thought they were a good deal, et cetera, et cetera. So I've got a mixed herd. My one herd is mixed. So it's actually very interesting to see the differences of how they perform.
Justin Crawford:The Ponsmara is a South African developed breed. I mean, it's not as suited to grass-based systems as they do. It definitely requires more care and they, you know, from a disease perspective they're also a lot more difficult to look after. Where we are, the one farm in particular, we get very warm and humid summers, so you get a lot of pressure from external parasites. Ticks and flies and even internal parasites are also a problem. I think guinea outperforms the guanthomora and it comes to that, and the use of chemicals is something that doesn't sit very well with us. So we have to use chemicals occasionally. Guanthomora type animals just require so much more intervention from that perspective. And then also they're just not as easy to actually get back into.
Justin Crawford:Calf finish on grass. They probably design. I suppose they'd be bred that way. I don't think the original intention was that they designed for a car-car operation and then finishing off in a feed, lot more than the Inguni. So there's a definite difference in the breed, I think, if you cross it at once. While with a Inguni they've got a pretty good outing, I think some of our once more across Inguni cars which will hit the ground soon, I think, will be pretty, pretty good. So you know, the cross is fine. I think a few of them tomorrow is probably going to be.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yes, and what was it about the fully grass-fed operation that drew you in, compared to, say, this feedlot-based model, which is probably more expeditious and perhaps normal route, rather than trying to do a slower fully grass-fed process?
Justin Crawford:The first thing, actually, I went on a beef course in 2008, and it was actually. The course was with the un-sit one reserve obviously a sustainable ranching and I need to see grazing here and the course was held at a feedlot and that was my first experience of a large-scale feedlot. Um, yeah, and I just you. You just look at a feedlot and you know that I was actually disgusted by the whole thing. When I saw a big feedlot like that, I always wanted to just go for the grass-fed root because it just seemed so much more natural and healthier. Yeah, maybe a bit hard to stick to my side, but I can't actually bear to let him send my cat to a feedlot. I just don't. I would prefer to finish him myself, just from an animal welfare perspective and a health perspective.
Justin Crawford:So that was the main driving factor behind our decision to cover the rice fields.
Dr Max Gulhane:Can you talk a little bit, maybe about some of the numbers that you're seeing with your cattle in terms of what age are your cows getting to, how many calves are they having? What are some of these metrics that speak to kind of the robustness or longevity of the Inguni cow?
Justin Crawford:You know, my current herd is only, you know, the oldest. The longest I've had them is three years now, so it's still in the early days as far as that's concerned. But I've bought some cows. They're still in the herd now, so they're 14. We're on some of the felt-free grade which is really rough, so it wears their teeth down a lot quicker than the suits and belters. 14 is still a fairly good age for a cow to be raising a calf. So I've got a few 14-year-olds cruising around that are still producing calves for me. So that's the oldest I've got. You know, 15 might be the oldest that probably survive in my environment. I think in better environments, you know, guys have obviously had cows last much longer than that. Um, that's, that's probably the oldest that we've got.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah yeah, and and speak to speak to fertility and carving. Are you having issues or difficulty with carving?
Justin Crawford:all they have such small calves. I haven't seen blood carvings, so yeah, that's almost a non-factor for the virus carvings. We've had a few issues with jackal. I mean jackal would have killed blood carvings. But no actual carving, even heifers. They generally carve an assistant. I don't baby my cows. Cows carve together in one day.
Dr Max Gulhane:I'm not even there, so there there's no assistance that the cows have to do yeah, and and the, the jackal and the predator problem is an interesting one that you know. Places like australia we aren't as uh, it's not as serious a problem. Maybe in some areas there's there's wild dogs, but we definitely don don't have the predators that Africa has. So are you keeping your herd fully with?
Justin Crawford:horns for those reasons. Yeah, that is. Look, I don't really dehorn purely because it's not really worth it. For me, dehorning is more a requirement from the people side. So we don't really need to dehorn our cattle because there's a bit of competition sometimes with high density grazing. But the cattle they sort out their picking orders for it. I just don't need to do it on my side because I'm marketing directly and the abattoir that we deal with doesn't penalise us for having a jackal. Yeah, but the jackal factory is another thing that does help.
Dr Max Gulhane:So it makes sense, speak to this grazing operation that you've arrived at. Were you always using regenerative or holistic techniques, or is that something that you started more recently at? Were you always using regenerative or holistic techniques, or or is that something that you started more recently?
Justin Crawford:I've always been interested in it. Um, you know, I went to my first course, uh, 2008, the year after I started farming for the first time. Um, and I, you know, I was so young in those days that, uh, I really, like you know, I tried to implement it and I made so many mistakes that I think back now. It's not easy, I mean, it takes a bit of time to get the hang of it. So I probably, you know, I did it for a couple of years then and then I tried it again in 2012 for a couple of years, also probably not as effectively as I probably should have done it. And then when we started three years ago, obviously I started right off the bat. I started with that type of grazing and it's amazing how the older you are, the more experience.
Justin Crawford:You sort of learn from your mistakes a lot quicker. Yeah, and I feel a lot more confident now about what I'm doing. And you know the cows have responded to it, you know. So it's all about managing sort of cows grass at the same time. You know you have to balance, balance those needs. When I first started I probably focused too much on the grass at the expense of the cows, and that that's a mistake. You've always got to keep your cows you know your cows in good enough condition.
Justin Crawford:So, yeah, it's all about achieving that balance of body condition and actual impact on the grass. You get that balance right. I think as I got older I've managed to get a grip on that side of it. Nature throws a few things at you and you have to adapt. I definitely feel a bit better about what I'm doing as far as the grazing side of things.
Dr Max Gulhane:Can you explain to us and maybe for listeners that aren't familiar with these techniques, can you explain exactly what you're doing and what a typical kind of move or day looks like?
Justin Crawford:Yeah, so we move our cattle. Depending on the time of year we move them about four to six times a day. So it's pretty intensive. It still only requires one employee per herd. It's not a lot of extra labor.
Justin Crawford:But the idea is for them to basically graze the grass quite severely, as severely as possible, without them losing any condition. And the more often you move them it sort of stimulates the appetite and it just keeps them going, if you know what I mean. So if you move them often and also prevents fouling of the paddock, if you give cows a big paddock they'll sort of walk around the whole paddock and they'll you know that hoof action and they'll dung in the urine and they sort of foul it. So a lot of it will be fouled and they won't eat it as efficiently, if you know what I'm saying. With much tighter sort of densities and smaller moves, it's just you get a much more sort of efficient utilization of grass. It does come at the expense of body condition if you're not paying attention to it.
Justin Crawford:It's quite a tricky system. You have to keep your cows moving onto fresh grass as often as possible. Basically it requires a bit of management, but it just allows you to utilize what you've got much more effectively. You end up, basically with a lot more grass than you ever imagined. Basically I mean my one grazing farm, I ended up with 100 hectares that I rested for this last winter, out of 250 hectares. So basically we just let 100 hectares grow out for winter fodder, which is a big plus when it comes to winter. You've got all that rest of grass basically because you're just utilising the rest of the farm as efficiently as possible.
Justin Crawford:A lot of guys don't agree with it because it requires lots of monitoring and management. I think it's very beneficial for the grass. You see big improvements in your grass in quite a quick space of time. The cows have to also adapt to the system. So when you bring in new cows it does take them a few months to get used to it. It's best to actually have cows born on your farm into that system. They do much better than new entrants into the system. The idea behind it is basically just efficient utilization of grass with an appropriate rest period.
Justin Crawford:I'm in a high rainfall area, so my rest periods in summer are pretty short. To keep the grass vegetative, you've got to go back onto it for three to four weeks. If you let it grow out too long in my area it loses. It's meaty, and then you know cow performance crops. So, yeah, it's all about keeping the grass vegetative and then you know, keep cows fresh for a long time and, and this balance between hitting the ground or hitting the grass hard is obviously and cow condition.
Dr Max Gulhane:To me that sounds like you're getting benefits from intensive proof action, from intensive grazing and non-selective grazing, which is beneficial because it's acting like a stressor, a hormetic stressor that will bounce back greater after rest. But you've got to balance that against. Is that the potential of the cows getting stressed from not having enough to eat or being too close to the rest of the herd.
Justin Crawford:So what you end up doing, you get competition for grazing, obviously, and the cows will eat grass that they probably wouldn't usually eat. So there can be a decline in performance, individual performance. So it comes with that risk and you've got to keep a close eye on your cows. But you must never basically allow your cows to get fat. If there's a gap, you can fill in that gap with a little bit of supplementation At certain times of the year, like before they're calving.
Justin Crawford:Now I'll allow my cows to be a lot more selective so they'll get into the best condition as possible. Now we won't move them four to six times a day at the moment. We'll basically move them maybe twice a day and allow them to put on weight before they calve. So you've got to sort of take the time of year into account as well and body condition of the calves for that time of year, because carving in good condition is critical to getting your calves back into craft. It's actually the most important factor in reconception. So I won't push my calves harder this time of year. I'll allow them to put on weight While they're carving. I won't push them too hard either. Once the calves are basically all born I'll probably start running them a little bit tighter so you adapt throughout the year, basically.
Dr Max Gulhane:It's an interesting balance because you're obviously to me it sounds like you've got this long-term I mean very long-term benefit on the grassland and the soil quality, the carbon, the moisture quantity, but then you've also got a longer, but maybe shorter time horizon, which is the body condition of the cows that you're using. So it sounds like a balance that you're describing between keeping both optimized as much as possible.
Justin Crawford:Yeah. So it requires basically balancing those two your filter and your cows. Basically You've got to just keep an eye on your cows. Your cows come first. Obviously, if your cows get thin, you know you basically you're not going to make any money. So you've just got to keep an eye on your cows and then basically use your cows to improve your ground. That's the idea. And you know, cows can improve ground very quickly if you allow them to just express their natural behaviors. And you know, if you don't push them too, their natural behaviors and and, and you know, you know, if you don't push them too hard, they, they still do.
Justin Crawford:Well, um, I do supplement them. You know I'm not one of those guys who thinks a cow can survive like like an antelope on the. You know, I don't think goonie cows can do that in that system. I think they still need a bit of supplementation. So you know I push them hard but I give them a bit of supplement to compensate for anything. You know, and I think you know, as long as you sort of keep an eye out on their condition and monitor your grass all the time, it can work. It definitely can work and it's working for me. I mean my one farm is very small. I mean it's only 40 hectares basically Cows all year round, basically without any pay. So that's basically three cows per hectare, which is pretty intense, but it can be done.
Dr Max Gulhane:What is the biggest argument against this model? Because obviously, this idea of set stocking is what maybe the norm is, and so how do you think about people who would argue against the idea of this intensive grazing model?
Justin Crawford:Some people have valid criticisms of it, because if you don't monitor it very closely, things can go wrong. It's usually as a result of some guys do it with the wrong genetics, if you haven't got the right type of genetics for that system and goonies are almost always adapted, you know, suitable for that type of system because of their small frame and you know they just, most of them, have got. They're voracious eaters, they've got good appetites, they, you know they don't get parasite hassles, which all contribute to, you know, to their body condition.
Dr Max Gulhane:They're adapted to the heat, you know.
Justin Crawford:When it's hot, the Goonies can still carry on grazing. I think some guys try and do it with the wrong genetics. And if you haven't got the right genetics it can be a problem and then maybe it's just too difficult for people to implement in certain environments A lot of your environment can make certain things difficult.
Justin Crawford:If you've got a very steep farm, it can be difficult. I've seen it, you know. I've seen guys get it right in arid environments and very wet environments so you can work in both those environments and it just depends on you know your goals, I suppose as a manager. It's just you know people have different approaches to things. There's no right way and wrong way of doing it. The system just suits me. I think it's just best for me to maximize the land that I've got. For me to go find other farms, it just makes it too difficult. I'd rather maximize the two that I'm renting presently.
Dr Max Gulhane:So that's my approach to it.
Justin Crawford:I just try and maximize what I've got.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, you know presently. So that's my approach to it. I just try and maximize what I've got. Yeah, so I mean, it sounds to me like the the best metric for judging the improvement of of the land is the carrying capacity. Um, so how many more cows you can carry compared to when you started regenerative grazing the land is? Is that one way of thinking about it?
Justin Crawford:well, you know, I think profitability in ranching or farming the biggest fact is your stocking rate, regardless of how you're actually selling you're selling direct to consumer or if you're selling to feedlots I think this your stocking rate is your is the biggest factor. You know. I think that's obviously. Fertility is probably the second biggest factor in profitability. So if you can manage to get those two pretty high, I think you're on the right track. Obviously, the higher your stocking rate goes, the more pressure you're putting on your cows and fertility can drop, which is the one criticism against the high density grazing.
Justin Crawford:A lot of guys have had drops in fertility, which is the one criticism against the high-density grazing. A lot of guys have had drops in fertility. Yeah, so you've got to have the appropriate cow. You basically have to carve at the right time of year as well. When you do this, if you're going to carve in early spring, when it's still dry, it's going to be very difficult for you to get those cows back into calf. Yeah, so you've got to work with nature when you try to implement this type of system.
Justin Crawford:Yeah, it can be done, but you can make mistakes as well, so there's a risk to it.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, and maybe share with us some of the biggest mistakes that you've learned from for anyone listening or thinking about getting into this game yeah, my biggest mistakes have been have been obviously pushing my cows too hard and then my winter supplementation, you know trying to save money on, on supplementation throughout winter our winters are probably the worst you know get the value of the grass really, really declines.
Justin Crawford:I've tried to get my cows through winter, maybe by not spending enough on it. That's been my biggest mistake. I think I should have probably even this previous winter. I ran into my cows battling a bit in August. I had to change quickly and supplement them a bit more. Yeah, so you know, I've always tended to probably be a bit too hard on my cars, even from a supplementation point of view. I think it's a false sort of sense of saving. You think you're saving money, but I think you just lose out in terms of production. Yeah, so that's probably been my biggest mistake. You know. Inadequate supplementation through the winter months. Yeah, I've learned, yeah, lessons there.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, for sure yeah, and look, it sounds like these. These challenges are, all you know, very context dependent. Lots of places, especially here in australia, you know, don't have the harsh winters that that you're describing. So, uh, it seemed.
Justin Crawford:It seems very, yeah, very, very location dependent you know, even in south africa you know that there's a big range of different environments. The guys in the dry are more arid to the areas they have. You know, as long as they've got grass, the quality is there.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, we have lots of grass, but the quality really declines, you know, hugely in winter so yeah, everyone has a there's a different, different sort of challenge as far as that's concerned yeah, so so talk to this, this direct to consumer meat um operation that you're running, because here in australia it's it's really taking off. There's more awareness, I think, from people, from consumers, that they want to know where their beef has come from. They want to know where their beef has come from, they want to know where their produce has come from and as there are more, I think, interventions and inputs into the animal agriculture sector with more opacity or lack of transparency about what chemicals may or may have not been used on those animals, more and more people want to know and have that direct relationship. So what was the impetus for you to get into direct to consumer set sales of your meat?
Justin Crawford:yeah, so you know, like I spoke about visiting a feedlot for the first time, obviously was one of the triggers. Um, I've always been pretty health conscious. I you know, I've been buying grass-fed meat for as long as I can remember, basically and South Africans are slowly as far as our sales are concerned, we don't have a demand issue. We could sell as much meat, basically, as we could.
Justin Crawford:There's definitely an uptick in South Africa as well, as far as people wanting to know where their meat comes from, whether it's being treated with antibiotics or growth hormones. There's definitely more awareness, I would say, in South Africa as far as people they're more aware of how beef is produced. That's promising from our side. I think the potential for growth is huge. Our biggest problem is actually the supply, basically the time it takes to raise an animal. That's our biggest challenge. I think we underestimated how difficult that would be from a cash flow perspective, you know. So that's been our biggest, biggest hassle. Um, I probably bought too many breeding cows. I should have bought, maybe you know, some meat or some long yearlings, um, and I would have shortened that. You know that production period, um, obviously, from that, you know from that as we go, obviously from that, you know from that as we go on. Um, but yeah, that's, I think it's. I think australia is probably, you know, ahead of the curve as far as we're concerned, but south africa is catching on for sure.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, what is that turnaround time from? From maybe the the insemination or conception, to to, uh, you know, beef on the plate, you know so.
Justin Crawford:So our steers, we, basically we slaughtering them about two and a half round, about two and a half years old, and our supplement, though on grass, yeah, so it's not too long, I mean, yeah. So look, it's basically from birth to to slaughter about two and a half years, you know. Obviously the gestation goes nine months as well, I think. Once you're in the system, it obviously can be very financially rewarding. It's quite a strain getting there. I can promise you we're not going to give up any time soon.
Dr Max Gulhane:Some of the challenges that the farmers that I told you have, depending on where they are, is is processing, and and the abattoirs. So and and especially this trend here in australia of the closing of of abattoirs to small operators and and basically the the conglomeration or centralization, as they get bought out by big boys and they're only interested in doing bulk orders, so to speak. So is that an issue for you?
Justin Crawford:Fortunately it isn't. I don't know if it'll change in the future. We've got a small abattoir that's only about 30 kilometers up the road from us. So that's yeah. I mean, we originally started slaughtering we didn't even know where the abattoirs were. When we started it was 170 kilometers away from us. We started there and then we found a smaller one 30 k's away from us, which is, you know, which is ideal. So I mean, it's basically a half an hour trailer ride to the abattoir, you know. So it's a lot less stress for the animal, you know has some advantages there, because maybe it's not as centralised as the Australian beef industry in that respect.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, I think it's really an animal welfare issue, and you hear about how far some producers have to truck their animals and you know the regulations that are, you know, so onerous that they close these small abattoirs or they make it unprofitable for the abattoirs to service smaller operators. That's really impacting. Not only is it making everything more expensive because of fuel costs, but it's also impacting the animal welfare of those animals that have to stand in that truck for longer.
Justin Crawford:Yeah, yeah, I follow Jake Mulkey on Twitter and Instagram and, yeah, he, basically I've seen these challenges as far as watering is concerned. Yeah, so I forget.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah.
Justin Crawford:I must be lucky from that side. We haven't got that issue. Yeah, so that's one plus for us. The processing we actually do ourselves as well, so it's not very onerous to our side. So I've got a blockman who processes for us when we need to do it, and that's easy.
Dr Max Gulhane:So you receive the carcasses back and then he, he, uh, basically butchers it yeah yeah, and then we process the meat ourselves.
Justin Crawford:So yeah, so that that that that's. Yeah, the regulations and that from from our side are probably as strict as australia.
Dr Max Gulhane:So yeah, yeah, definitely sounds like uh, an advantage. Talk about the meat quality and what does it taste like. Are people specifically after Nguni versus other kind of beef, and what's your experience?
Justin Crawford:Yeah, you know, I'd never eaten an Nguni well, knowingly eaten an Nguni steak up until last year November. So we didn't really know what to expect. But, yeah, the quality of Goonie meat is absolutely outstanding. So we were pleasantly surprised by that. I mean, we've slaughtered some relatively old cows with the quality of the meat being right up there. So, yeah, goonie's got good quality meat. That's one thing that we were really, really surprised by. And, interestingly, we've slaughtered some other animals and I would say that Nguni outperforms, you know, the traditional beef animal as far as flavor and, just, you know, general quality is concerned. So I don't think quality is ever going to be an issue if you, if you, stick to the green breed. As far as direct, direct marketing, um, yeah, so you know, you know no one is even aware of it. That's the thing. It's a funny. It's a funny thing because, you know, in goonies are south african breed and no one's ever really tried to to Huni beef in South Africa before.
Justin Crawford:I mean we often see Angus beef in the supermarket, even in South Africa. Angus guys will say you know it'll be labeled as an Angus steak, but I've never, ever seen anyone actually label it a Huni steak. I've never seen it done. So yeah, it's a funny thing because the quality is right up there, so you know there's an opportunity there to brand it for sure. Yeah, the quality's right up there, so there's an opportunity there to brand it for sure.
Dr Max Gulhane:I found that peculiar that, basically the country where this breed is originated people hadn't even tasted their own beef, so to speak, their own cattle, and, like you say, they were happy to import this consumer preference of Black Angus, which is a completely dominated Australia as well. People have a perceived superiority of this Black Angus breed, which in my opinion is unfounded relative to a lot of breeds, basically anything that's fully grass-fed, but even particularly something like a fully grass-fed Nguni cow. But yeah, to me it seems like there's no reason why that couldn't be a thing, nguni beef.
Justin Crawford:No for sure. You know, I think originally Ngunis. Well, there's still a perception out there amongst a lot of South Africans that a Goonie is an inferior animal to your British and European breeds. I think that's probably where it comes from.
Justin Crawford:People were probably never interested in actually branding something as an Inguni steak because most of the population regarded them as inferior. Something is an acute mistake. Because most of the population regarded them as inferior. Um, it's only probably in the last I don't know 20, 30 years that you know commercial south african commercial farmers have not been good. He realized what they can actually do. Um, you know that, you know you need to become sort of more mainstream. Um, yeah, so maybe that's. You know that that sort of perception has been the thing holding it back. Maybe that has been the issue.
Dr Max Gulhane:But that perception is totally incorrect.
Justin Crawford:So there's definitely an opportunity for the other qualities, definitely. I mean, I've spoken with one of the society members from Africa. He also markets his beef on a smaller scale and he says, yeah, the quality is just out of this world. You can't believe how good it is. So, yeah, there's definitely an opportunity there, but it's not easy, I suppose, to get the public to buy into it.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, and look, that's a theme I think of of direct to consumer and a lot of these regenerative kind of operations, which is consumer education about the value of, of the beef nutritional quality, and I think there's hopefully in the future going to be things like nutrient density and nutrient testing that we can point to to say, look at this compared to your supermarket feedlot beef, um, and and hopefully to justify and educate people that that it's worth the, the, perhaps the, the extra small premium yeah, I think it's happening in the states already.
Justin Crawford:I think there's um. I don't know if you follow Dr Stefan van der Vliet. He's doing some testing on nutrient density for grass-fed beef versus feedlot beef. I think that is on its way to happening. Definitely, people are becoming a lot more health conscious, so that you know I think people want to know, you know, what the difference between a grass-fed steak is and a feedlot steak now not everyone, but a lot of people are interested in that.
Justin Crawford:so I would be very, very surprised if a feedlot steak has more nutrients than a grass-fed steak, and I think dr stephen from its research is starting to actually back that up. He's he's doing the research and I research and I think it won't be long before all that evidence is in favor of grass-fed beef. I think one of the problems is you get a bit of variation in terms of producers. Some producers probably don't produce the best grass-fed beef because maybe they're slaughtering animals before they're ready, there's not sufficient fat cover on the animal, before they're ready, there's not sufficient fat cover on the animal, and you'll probably end up with a substandard product in that respect. So it probably is producer specific. But the more and more producers there are out there, I think the better quality product you'll probably find. You'll get some producers who become very good at it.
Justin Crawford:I think, nutrient density, I'm sure, for God's sake, will be the key.
Dr Max Gulhane:Let's yeah, you mentioned Jake Wilkie and Jake's a good friend and he's doing some very innovative stuff with basically putting in goonie balls over retired dairy cows and you know, the 40% or so that don't carve after they've, you know, come from the dairy after they've been kicked out of the team of the dairy team, the ones that don't carve, he he puts on grass and then sells as dairy beef and some of these cows are, you know, eight years old, six eight years old, and uh, that it, they taste amazing. And have you have you uh, had any of these, these older cattle being processed and have you have you kind of tasted that? That particularly?
Justin Crawford:hairy beef.
Justin Crawford:You're talking about max or any or any older cow yeah, I've slaughtered some older uni cows and the meat is absolutely. Yeah, it's absolutely perfect. I think I've slaughtered a couple of 12 year old cows and the meat's been good. Um, it's all about basically basically the fat coming. If they're in good condition and you hang them for long enough, the meat is actually pretty good. Eight-year-old cows, uni cows I've slaughtered quite a few now and they're absolutely perfect. Yeah, so you know the whole beef industry, though the grading system in South Africa I'm sure Australia is the same, it's all on basically the age of the animal sort of determines the quality, but it's actually it's not really an appropriate sort of grading system for a lot of people. I think an eight-year-old cow is pretty good eating, especially if it's in good condition. Yeah, so you can slaughter these cows at eight, ten years old and it's good quality.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, and I think as long as it's. If the carcass has an appropriate hang time you know 10 days, two weeks then that's also pretty important. Where are you seeing the fat distribution in these fully grass-fed animals? Is it predominantly subcutaneous, like a fat cap, or are you seeing marbling as well?
Justin Crawford:You know, the goonie doesn't marble that much. From my experience, a lot of it is sort of subcutaneous. I would say um, but it it's marbled sufficiently. You know, I think that you know, look like I've never eaten a waggy steak, but I've seen photos of that, of it and they have really really, really. You know a lot of marbling. You don't get that on a goopy much, obviously.
Justin Crawford:But they have subcutaneous fats and they have sufficient marbling for good eating. So that's been my experience of it. So I don't know if the consumers have. You know Wag. You know it's an interesting one. I think it's been sold as this premium product. But a wagyu cow is, it's very difficult to raise in a natural environment. You know it's not a type of car you're going to go stick out on the range no yeah.
Justin Crawford:So you know, it might, it might be a tasty steak, but I don't think it's the healthiest. Healthiest, whereas an agunica a lot of them are in harmony with the environment. Uh, just the whole, the whole package just just looks better to me and the quality of the meat is good.
Dr Max Gulhane:So, yeah, I would say you, obviously not as much marbling, but yeah yeah, that and that's been my experience when I I was tasting anguni beef and yes, it wasn't. It didn't have intramuscular marbling, but the muscle meat was deeply flavorful and then there was sufficient fat cap to make it, you know, really delicious. And it's something that I've advocated for from a human health point of view, similar to Dr Sean O'Mara, who's one of the world's leading health-optimizing doctors, and both of us advocating for this grass-fed beef, this fully grass-fed beef that inevitably has less intramuscular marbling than a feedlot-fed cow or the, you know, the pug equivalent, bovine pug equivalent, which is the Wagyu. So, yeah, hopefully people come around to that and you know demand keeps rising.
Justin Crawford:Yeah, for sure. I follow Sean on Twitter, so I'm aware of his work. Yeah, like you say I think you are what you eat, basically you know.
Dr Max Gulhane:So, yeah, that's it the, the um, maybe in terms of uh any, any kind of lessons or encouragement or advice that you'd have for people looking at this? You know this full stack of say, perhaps using Nguni genetics in a regenerative grazing model and then trying to do or going down the direct-to-consumer model. Would you have any kind of reflections or particular advice that might help people?
Justin Crawford:My advice would be, starting out, is to probably buy as many weaners and oxen as you possibly can to start with, and add the breeding cows when you can afford it. I just think from a cash flow perspective, you're going to get a return a lot quicker than actually going the whole breeding route. I think the breeding route is the way that we all think we should start, but from a cash flow perspective it's definitely not the way to start. You need to start with growing animals, basically that you can add value to that increase in value as you basically buy them. A cow is another story. You've got to get her into cough. Once she's had that cough, you've got to get her back into cough and she takes a lot more care than a, than a weiner or an oxy. You can just you can run on, you know you can run on grass and you know put weight on. So that's the biggest mistake I made and I actually, if anyone else was trying this from from scratch, I would definitely suggest that they they go that route, you know. So I think you've just you. Cash flow is king in this business and you know the beef industry. It's notoriously difficult to get a return quickly. So I think you've got to do everything you possibly can to try, you know, to try and minimise that sort of that time between your initial investment and getting some sort of return.
Justin Crawford:And another thing is I wouldn't advise buying land to start with. I made that mistake twice. Yeah, rented ground is definitely the way to start. Once your business is going, you can look at buying land. But rented ground I mean you can get rented ground just about in every country. I look at it. Rented ground you can get for a fraction of the price of buying land. So it's just, you know, you've got to start with rented ground and growing animals, don't start with cows.
Dr Max Gulhane:That would be my advice. That's very good advice, and I think two of the farmers that are good friends here in Australia, jake Welke and Brian Usher both of them are using Nguni genetics, but they also are emphasising the model that you described, and part of that is also because these cows are quite scarce here. As you know, there's a small breeding herd of pure-blooded animals, so to buy or to start with a breeding herd is extremely expensive. So it definitely makes sense from a financial point of view, if we're trying to sell grass-fed beef, to maybe start with a bull and then, yeah, maybe get the benefits of the genetics but also, as you say, work on optimising the cash flow. The other point about the renting versus the leasing land versus buying is also pretty interesting. There's a young guy, cam Griffin, here in Australia who's doing just that. I don't know if you're following him on Instagram, but it seems like it's a great kind of in, especially for younger farmers looking to break into this.
Justin Crawford:Max, there actually is no other way to get into it unless you've got obviously big capital. It is the best way to get into it. You know South Africa hasn't got the sort of beef industry of the states. In the states you can start with other people's cattle on rented ground. People will pay you to basically graze their cattle for them. So that's an option for people in the states. In South Africa we don't have that option, so you still have to come up with a capital to buy the cows or the weaners or the oxen. Yeah, you know you can't compare the two systems now.
Dr Max Gulhane:so even in australia.
Justin Crawford:I'm sure it's got to be. It's got to be the way to start. Um, you know, if you keep the back, if you buy correctly and you buy, you buy an animal, that's, that's not too long. You know, if the period between buying and selling is not too not too long, you know, start some cash. That's definitely the way to go.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, it's interesting how these changes in economics and monetary incentives and in the whole agricultural systems are kind of forcing adaption and I think what we've talked about in this discussion is some of the the most efficient adaptions, which is low input, ie fully grass-fed, um a robust genetics, ie in goonie, so they're not, you know, having uh obstructed labor and you know dying and pulling carbs out and then cultivating a market so you can sell your beef directly and not uh be a price taker, um, you know, in the commodity market yeah, no for sure.
Justin Crawford:In south africa. You know the price. The b price at the moment is really really low. Um, we're fortunate that we're not actually being impacted by that at the moment, for some reason, that the end price doesn't really fluctuate anywhere near as much as the commodity markets do. So I think if B-price go up obviously we probably would be different.
Justin Crawford:But for me, selling an Aguni cow now is slaughtering her and processing and selling her At least I'm getting a decent return, whereas if I had to sell her, you know, through the commodity channels at a sale, I would be getting a lot less. So you know, you've got that, you've got that, you know you can control your destiny a bit from that side of it. Um, you know that, so it's a big plus from that side who are your customers mainly, and where are they?
Justin Crawford:I actually stick to the production side of it and my wife runs the sales side of it. We're fairly unsophisticated, basically we don't even have a website. Our customers we sell all the way up to Janusburg quite a lot in Durban. Durban's fairly close to us, about an hour and a half two hours. There's a small town called Hawick which is 20 minutes away from us and then Peter Marisburg which is about 40 minutes away from us. So we sell between those sort of four centres.
Justin Crawford:Basically we're selling our meat easily. It hasn't been a hassle at all. I thought when we first started we would sit with a lot of mince and we thought we would sell the steaks would sell out quickly and the mince would sit. But that hasn't been the case. People buy the mince and the hamburger and that kind of thing. Stewing meat has been very easy to sell. You know the selling selling across red beach has been. It's been easy. You know. Um, you know, look the customer's too hot. Um, you know the. The challenge has been the supply side. Just having a regular supply has been a challenge for us.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, that was well, uh, I mean yeah, and I guess the learning process, and well, I mean all the South Africans that I know love eating beef, so with low beef prices, it sounds like a great place to be a carnivore to eat a lot of beef.
Justin Crawford:Yeah, I suppose it's all relative maybe, but the prices are much lower here than in Australia.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, yeah, fantastic yeah.
Justin Crawford:Yeah.
Dr Max Gulhane:Fantastic. Well, justin, do you have any final thoughts? I mean, the other interesting thing that was actually posted on the Nguni International Group that we were kind of discussing recently was that finding of basically an apocalypse Arctic cattle herd somewhere up in the arctic circle and and you posted a very interesting article noting that the actual breed characteristics or the genetic sequencing, and they were seen to be predominantly, you know, northern, uh, northern european cattle, and you know we, we made the point that it's almost, you know, too obvious to say, but you know you should be using the cattle that are adapted to your location. Yet in in my, in australia, there are people using, you know, british breeds, uh, perhaps in more drier, hotter areas than they would have traditionally been adapted to, and then complaining when they don't thrive no for sure.
Justin Crawford:I think that's been driven by the commodity feed market. The feedlots and the avatars are basically dictated to the farmer basically. So the farmer has gone, and now it happens in every country. He's gone and put animals which have suited the meatpacking. They want big carcasses, I'd imagine, and the feedlots want animals that are going to gain, have high feed conversion ratios. So I think the farmers sort of most farmers have gone with the animal that suits the feedlot and the herbiture more than suits the environment. So basically the farmers are subsidizing the process up to the guys taking the hiding, basically, and it happens everywhere.
Justin Crawford:It's just one of those things that you scratch your head and you wonder when are people going to take back some sort of control and farm with a cow that is more suited to your environment? I'd imagine parts of Australia are so hot that the Angus must really take strain in summer and the humidity, together with the heat, is a big. I've got some cattle which have a bit of British blood in them and when it gets really hot and humid they take a lot of strain, have a bit of British blood in them and when it gets really hot and humid they take a lot of straight. I suppose the pharmaceutical industry as well has allowed people to keep those cattle alive where previously they wouldn't have survived. It's been a few factors which have contributed to that. Some of us don't want to, you know, pump our capital for those pharmaceuticals and, you know, farm capital that aren't suited to our environment.
Dr Max Gulhane:So you know, I don't know.
Dr Max Gulhane:I'll always carry on with a cow, which I think suits my environment yeah, it's a great point and it doesn't get emphasized enough, which is, uh, you know, the pharmaceuticals industry's influence in veterinary medicine through agriculture is, you know, just as uh, you know, deep as it is in human medicine, and I, at least, humans kind of you know, after they get prescribed that their kind of uh, third blood pressure lowering medication and their fourth, fourth, diabetes med and maybe their sixth increase in their insulin dose, that they start asking questions but the poor cow can't say anything oh, she just gets with more chemicals, like you said yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, it's, it is, it's a, it's a trend, and I think, to me at least, you know, having this conversation with, with people such as yourself and and other farmers, it sounds like the pendulum is kind of swinging, swinging back and and.
Dr Max Gulhane:Uh, you know people, as we talked about people demanding more chemical free meat and and, and producers such as yourself are there to to kind of meet the demand and and, and that's my perspective, like people wondering why a doctor is having such interest in an in in australian obscure, uh, you know, indigenous sangha african cow breed, and, and and the answer is, you know, because this cow is, uh, predominantly is lacking the need for chemical input. So, you know, I can give my patient, or, um, you know, recommend a meat that is unlikely to be contaminated with anything and is, from an animal ethics point of view, thriving in in all conditions, without the need for intervention yeah, max, I think you're doing great work there.
Justin Crawford:I mean, they're not a lot of doctors, like you say. You actually, you actually see the link between actually see the link between how food is produced and health. So yeah, and you know I mean you know, the goonie basically is the right animal for a lot of environments in Australia. So I think it's got a big future there. Yeah, and, like you say, chemical-free meat has got to be the way to go. Just have to take a look around. People aren't healthy. So you know there's a lot of.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, and, as you said, you know, eating diabetic. You know Wagyu cattle that have been, you know know, brushed and fed in a sling. You know that's that's not the answer either, but, uh, you know, maybe maybe I'm kind of getting a little bit grandiose, but I really think that this system that you know we're talking about is the solution to feeding the world a healthy food, because it is that. You know, on one side you've got bill gates, you know doing industrially sized uh, soy farming with maximum import, no animals. And then I think the polar opposite is what you're doing and others like jake and brian uh are doing, which is using these cattle in a regenerative way, regenerating the land and supplying your communities with this food.
Dr Max Gulhane:So, yeah, I really take the hat off to you and I think what you're doing is a real model for everyone not only in Africa, but also here in Australia and hopefully US and hopefully places like El Salvador, which you know can have very dry landscapes and you know there's so much marginal country in the world that would benefit from Nguni, I think.
Justin Crawford:No for sure. I think you know Meshawna has, which is basically an Nguni. It's a Zimbabwean version basically. I mean they were probably bred by commercial cattlemen before the Nguni was sort of adopted by commercial cattlemen in South Africa. So the Mishona was bred for a solid color and they went for polled animals, which is a bit more acceptable to the commercial guy, and I mean Mishona all over the warmer parts of the United States now and Central and South America.
Justin Crawford:So then Goonie basically, yeah, I mean there are a lot of sort of countries where you could export Goonie genetics and they'll do well and they'll. You know, hans Dueser has been one of the biggest proponents of Meshawna in South America, central America and the States. So I think, yeah, you're going to see a lot of cattle coming as much on the genetics in the near future. Yeah, so there's a big future there for bull as well.
Justin Crawford:I mean, I don't know if the mishawna is popular in Australia, but I see that uni is definitely picking up, yeah, so that's exciting.
Dr Max Gulhane:Yeah, definitely.
Justin Crawford:Cool. Any final parting thoughts or words? Uh, no, max, yeah, I just yeah, I appreciate the opportunity yeah, yeah, great.
Dr Max Gulhane:Well, I I think um a lot of farmers, all and runners will find this valuable and hopefully, what we've talked about can, uh, yeah, at least provoke some thought. And you know that's what I say to my patients. You know, I'm not here to tell you what to do, I'm just here to give you options and I I think, uh, yeah, just showing examples like yours is thought-provoking, if nothing else. Thank you.
