Regenerative Health with Max Gulhane, MD
I speak with world leaders on circadian & quantum biology, metabolic medicine & regenerative farming in search of the most effective ways of optimising health and reversing chronic disease.
Regenerative Health with Max Gulhane, MD
Health Hazards of Space Travel: Quantum biology perspective
Can humans thrive in space? Or is Elon Musk's idea of humans as spacefaring civilization a doomed endeavour? I present a summary of the Guy Foundation's recent report on Spaceflight and human health, accelerated ageing and mitochondrial dysfunction in space, and what this might mean for health and chronic disease here on planet earth.
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#quantumbiology #space #spacex #spacetravel #mitochondria
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In this episode I am going to be giving my analysis of what I think is a fundamentally groundbreaking publication by the Guy Foundation, and the title of this report is the Health Hazards of Space Travel. So what is this report and why is it important? Well, the subtitle is Novel Insights from Quantum Biology, and what the purpose of this report is is to essentially analyze, from a quantum biological perspective, the challenges or difficulties that humans will have in space or trying to colonise space. And the reason that they wrote this is because we have so many movements from Elon Musk and others in interest in space travel and space colonisation. So in the beginning of the report, the guy foundation noted that um quantum biology studies point to the damaging effects of the space environment on mitochondria and the electron transport chain. The other reason why it's, I think, very important to um understand the points raised in this report is because what we are doing uh in on earth is is fundamentally a game of optimising our mitochondrial colony, and through the quantum biological lens we can learn some very valuable points. The report's principal conclusion is that humans venturing into space may face more serious health hazards than previously thought. May face more serious health hazards than previously thought. If confirmed by research, this will call into question the viability of human exploration in deep space. Not what Elon wants to hear, but let's look what the science says. So, really briefly, who are the Guy Foundation? So they're formed by a former pharmaceutical executive, medical doctor, philanthropist, professor Jeffrey Guy, from the UK, and after being involved in the pharmaceutical cannabis industry, professor Guy has left that and basically repurposed or set up this foundation with the proceeds partial proceeds to essentially dedicate to advance the medicine via studying quantum biology. And what they seem to have done so far is really get together these world-leading researchers on mitochondria, on quantum biology, and have put them together to answer these really big questions of how can we harness these quantum biological effects for advancing human health.
Speaker 1:So from my perspective, I wanted to answer the question about why quantum biology is important and what I've written here is that the quantum biological effects are occurring in the human body and they influence and dictate the efficiency of the mitochondrial electron transport chain and therefore mitochondrial function. And, as I alluded to briefly before, is that health, disease, chronic disease, essentially boils down to how optimized or um unoptimized, your mitochondria are and disease, when it shows up, chronic disease essentially is the end stage breakdown or inefficiency of mitochondria in in that organ and whether that presents as neurodegenerative disease, like alzheimer's or parkinson's disease, or it's and manifests in the heart, like heart failure, or in the pancreas diabetes, or the kidneys, like chronic kidney disease. So this is important stuff. So preserving mitochondrial efficiency is how we maximize our health span. The biochemistry and the food-based paradigm of health optimization is essentially insufficient. It's insufficient to address these fundamental biological questions. It is not enough essentially to really it's not the basis. So that's why we need to go deeper. We need to start looking through a quantum biological lens, go deeper, we need to start looking uh at the through a quantum biological lens. Space flight provides uh, basically, and this in extremis study case for investigating human disease on on planet earth and this will make more sense by the time I get to the end but essentially, what is going on? But to our astronauts in the iss and by studying them and seeing how they're falling sick and exactly how, that is deeply informative to what's happening here on Earth.
Speaker 1:So they have an amazing definition in this report and it's one of optimal health, and they say that optimal health is a phenotype that maximizes health span and fitness while demonstrating morbidity compression in relation to its species' maximum lifespan. And that is a very, very succinct definition of what optimal health is, of what optimal health is. And in effect, they state the organism is healthy for most of its life, remaining fit, functional and robust, with little evidence of disease for its age, until very close to its time of death. So think about someone you might know, someone in your life, who lived to the ripe old age of 96 and was still driving up until their 95th birthday and then had a massive heart attack, died very suddenly and was game over. So really that is what we're talking about here and really you can contrast that to what is occurring in today's day and age, where people are falling sick and ill, with chronic diseases perhaps starting in their late 40s, 40s, 50s, and having two, three decades of illness and incapacity and morbidity prior to dying, and in that time period they're customers of this pharmaceutical-based system. So how have they framed this concept?
Speaker 1:And I really love this graph that they've presented, which is this idea of an accelerated aging phenotype, and what that translates to is, essentially, when you're going up into space, you're just demonstrating the effects of essentially accelerated aging, and these curves suggest that, in an ideal situation that we would have, as we just defined before, close to maximum as possible optimal health and then that perhaps cuts off more sharply close to the maximum lifespan. But what is possibly happening here is that when we're in space, then that is potentially reducing our life expectancy and, through these, accelerated aging phenotype, which, as we mentioned, is related to poor mitochondrial health. So what this looks like we don't know, but that is a graphical way of understanding or considering what is happening when humans are outside of their biologically evolved niche and what that's going, or considering what is happening when humans are outside of their biologically evolved niche and what that's going to potentially be doing to maximum lifespan, but also life expectancy and health span. So accelerated aging when you hear that you should, it should trigger you to think about mitochondrial dysfunction, and they state in this in the report, that space-induced accelerated aging phenotype appears to be associated with the disruption of cellular bioenergetics again something that I've been talking about for well over a year and that Jack Cruz first talked to me in when we did our podcast series together. So keep, keep that in mind.
Speaker 1:So what are the space exposures associated with mitochondrial dysfunction? Well, there we're going to go through each of them in turn. They're zero gravity and the loss of tensegrity, radiation exposures, the loss of near-infrared radiation, the loss of circadian environmental cues and the loss of a magnetic field. So let's start with Tensegrity and zero gravity. And so what is Tensegrity? It's an architectural approach in which structures are stabilized by continuous tension.
Speaker 1:Don Ingber put forward the idea that cells use a form of tensegrity some 20 years ago, proposing that microfilaments and intermediate filaments bear tensional forces which are balanced by microtubules and focal adhesions. And that's from a 2003 article on tensegrity and systems biology. So what effect are we really looking at as it relates to space and existing in space? So this diagram shows what they're meaning by the mechanical forces of tensegrity and how it is key in terms of maintaining the structure of the cell. And I'll read out the diagram shows the different mechanical forces of tension and compression in different materials. In biological materials, the extracellular matrix and the microtubules, for example, would be involved in maintaining tensegrity.
Speaker 1:It is likely that life, especially complex life, is reliant on this form for optimal function. So you can just imagine that when you're in zero gravity and if you think about what the International Space Station is, they're in continuous freefall. That is what they're doing as it orbits Earth. They're doing as it orbits Earth. So the loss of gravity is fundamentally a completely different situation to when how we evolved, and that is going to be a very difficult one to overcome in space. So what did they conclude? It is likely that reduced and, in particular, zero gravity removes the stimulus to maintain healthy mitochondria and cellular structural integrity, thereby decreasing metabolic adaptability and increasing oxidative stress. So pretty straightforward.
Speaker 1:So now um, the second that they've talked about is uh, radiation exposures, and, to briefly get a little bit technical, there's two roughly distinctions that they make in the report with regard to the radiation exposure in space, and we're talking about linear energy transfer, transfer, let radiation, and the distinction and the distinction, as made in the report, is between high linear energy transfer radiation and low linear energy transfer radiation. So this high LED radiation is charged particles emitted by the sun, so things like helium, nuclei, protons and neutrons. So these are essentially heavy particles and they get emitted during things like solar wind. Thankfully, because of the Earth's magnetic field, they're essentially deflected by Earth's magnetism and therefore we're protected from them. This is contrasting to low-LED radiation, which are photons and high-energy photons, particularly gamma and X-rays and they are actually absorbed by the Earth's atmosphere. So we are protected by the atmosphere from that type of radiation.
Speaker 1:So why are they an issue? Well, because they cause DNA strand breaks, oxidative stress and most importantly specifically, as it relates to this space exposure, is that they're not intermittent stresses. They are continuous stresses. And as we'll talk about a little bit later is that humans have an evolved ability to deal with hormetic exposures which provoke or allow the human body to adapt and respond. But if they are continuous, then that is extremely difficult or impossible for the body to form any form of adaptation possible, for the body to form any form of adaptation.
Speaker 1:Here is a visible depiction of what's going on and that is the magnetosphere protecting against this high LED radiation being emitted from the sun and contrasting how the atmosphere allows the penetration of different wavelengths of photons of electromagnetic energy, obviously allowing all the visible light to get through, allowing infrared to get through, but blocking gamma rays, blocking X-rays, allowing a little bit of ultraviolet light to get through and again, that's going to depend on the sun angle in the sky and obviously season and time of day, and then letting things like the longer, like radio waves, kind of getting through. So that's just a visible, visible depiction, and so what? So what's next? What have they said about that?
Speaker 1:Increased radiation induces damage in all cellular compartments, resulting in increased oxidative stress. This is especially the case with high linear energy transfer. Oxidative stress will compound any direct DNA damage and further reduce the capacity to repair and maintain DNA. And what is an immediate downstream consequence of DNA damage? And that is going to be cancer malignancy.
Speaker 1:So, lack of near-infrared radiation and this is something that I've talked at length about, but for those who are perhaps listening to, this includes um, shorter wavelength light, which again is ultraviolet uh. Depending on those um the sun angle, it's visible and then it's uh, it's infrared. And what uh is occurring is that the actual majority of light photons, not by energy but by photon count, is in this near-infrared range, from 750 nanometres out to beyond 2,500. And it has been not recognised until very recently that this infrared radiation is highly biologically active and highly irrelevant and important for the function of human cells, specifically mitochondria. So whereas, say, for example, plants in the process of photosynthesis use mostly red and blue light and reflect green, and that's why they're perceived by our eyes as green, they actually also reflect a whole bunch of this near-infrared light and that is why if you use near-infrared photography, then you basically see the things like trees lit up, because they're really reflecting all of this light. So the purpose of this slide is to illustrate that near infrared radiation is a fundamental white nutrient that your cells need and that biological systems, from humans down to fungi, have essentially evolved to make use of, and they don't waste any biological systems aren't wasting anything, and that's because evolution has made them supremely efficient to make use of all the energy in their environment.
Speaker 1:So a lack of near infrared radiation is something that is obviously happening in space and in the space station. Here's a visual depiction of what's actually occurring. Is that, amongst other functions, which include structuring the water inside the cells, which is occurring more at longer wavelengths of infrared light, in shorter, the near-infrared is stimulating the production of this antioxidant hormone, melatonin, on site, and melatonin is the oldest evolutionary conserved and most effective antioxidant system and it basically is able to have a cascading antioxidant effect, meaning its metabolites are themselves antioxidants and it is extremely powerful in mopping up the oxidative stress that's occurring as a result of normal cellular mitochondrial physiology and prior to its use as a hormonal signal of darkness and nighttime in our circulatory system. It was being used by prokaryotic organisms to essentially cool the engines, to dampen down oxidative stress and reduce the mutation rate. Essentially, that can occur in the cells, prokaryotes or mitochondria that don't have DNA protected by nucleus. So how has this been conceived? Well, professor Bob Fosbury, who's the emeritus astronomer at the European Southern Observatory, he's described this as 21st century scurvy, meaning that if you don't have near-infrared radiation, you'll have this slow, progressive reduction in mitochondrial efficiency, which is analogous, akin to what occurred to sailors during long sea voyages. So how can we think of? And that was obviously occurring due to a deficiency of vitamin C, but how else can we think about this?
Speaker 1:This paper gives us a good idea about the role of near-infrared and perhaps its benefit, which is that near-infrared and red light therapy as a potential countermeasure for mitochondrial dysfunction in space flighted associated neuroocular syndrome. So, um, that syndrome is a? Um potential occurrence for astronauts when they go into space and the the pathology or the pathophysiology of that condition is related to mitochondrial dysfunction. And what um this paper is proposing is that when we're using photobiomodulation, which is continuing to increase in its evidence base, as a therapeutic tool, then this could potentially be a process, a tool by which we reverse or prevent this consequence of spaceflight, and the mechanisms include direct absorption by the electron transport chain compounds like cytochrome C oxidase to boost mitochondrial function and have these increase in these cellular repair metabolism effects. So the next point that they talk about in the report is a loss of circadian environmental cues, and this slide is to illustrate that.
Speaker 1:The physiology, the wiring diagram of circadian biology as it's human circadian biology, and the fundamental point to understand is that the entire of the body's physiology is orchestrated along an internal timing mechanism which is requiring inputting, updating from environmental cues, particularly light, and those external light signals help to optimise essentially the running of these biological processes, from hormonal outputs to sleep-wake cycle, behaviour, food-seeking behavior, reproduction, and then obviously things like metabolism, reproduction, immune function. They're all regulated along a 24-hour cycle and the use of natural sunlight as this primary zeitgeber or input into circadian entrainment can't be overstated and what we are using as mammals, as homo sapiens, has been built on biologically like a pyramid, essentially on 3.4 billion years of evolution in which the full-spectrum natural sunlight was the key circadian entrainer and simply removing that or replacing that with artificial light is not something that can be adapted to overnight. So what's the problem here? Well, the problem is using these cool white LEDs that are deficient in longer wavelength red and infrared light, with a massive spike in the blue range, and expecting that we're going to get the same biological outcome. Well, we're not, and the reason we're not is because that spectrum looks nothing like full spectrum sunlight, which has always a commensurate balance of blue with red and infrared.
Speaker 1:And this really possibly I would suggest we could, rather than saying the loss of circadian environmental cues, I would actually say this is severe disruption of circadian environmental cues, because there's plenty of blue light and I didn't mention before but it's the actual blue wavelengths that are most impactful in terms of circadian entrainment through the eyes, because it's the melanopsin-containing, intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells that are most responsive to the presence or absence of blue light in the environment to entrain the circadian rhythm. So it's actually, you know, there's abundance of blue light in the space environment, but the problem here is that it's not balanced and it's essentially continuous and it's not in the ancestrally evolved form, which was extremely contextual, as we would have had natural blue light through from the sun. And here's simply another diagram, more detailed, which shows that it's the perception of this blue light in the eye and that is entraining the circadian rhythm, feeding into the hypothalamus, the suprachiasmatic nucleus, and then sending down a signal uh, via the um. Uh, but via the I believe it's a super superior cervical um ganglion, to to turn off melatonin. So that is, and obviously it's giving out other signals to do with mood regulation at an area called the her nucleus and to mediate the capillary light reflex at all, the very pre-tectal nucleus. So how did they summarize these light exposures in the report? Well, they said that a lack of near-infrared radiation due to artificial blue-shifted LED-based lighting may result in increased cellular stress. And the loss of circadian environmental cues that underpin an organism's biological rhythms results in cellular stress, further challenging an already metabolically compromised system. So keep that in mind, because that we're going to talk about that more as it relates to non-space environments. So what else did I talk about?
Speaker 1:So, loss of magnetic field, and this is a fascinating area of quantum biology, which is the use of magnetism and its effect on biology. And this diagram here says it shows a radical pair comprising two electrons in the Earth's magnetic field. The Earth has a static magnetic field with a north and south pole. The chemical outcomes of radical pair reactions are sensitive to external magnetic fields due to the interacting spins of the electrons and, going all the way back in terms of the history of quantum biology and this ability of the European robin to essentially sense magnetic fields and therefore use it to navigate, this is related to this interaction of electrons and free radicals. So what do they say in the report?
Speaker 1:In this sense, the Earth's magnetic field interacts directly with biological systems. Rather than merely screening them from radiation, it does this by changing the spin states of molecules and the chemistry that depends on these spin states. Biological systems have evolved their chemical reactions within the Earth's specific fields and are clearly affected by changes in the field strength both above and critically below. This means that travel to destinations that have no magnetic field, for example the Moon or Mars, could have fundamental effects on the chemistry integral to life. A further aspect is that it's becoming apparent that circadian shifts in the Earth's magnetic field also appear to be a zeitgeber and likely interact with the classical light-driven cryptochromes also involved in magnetic sensitivity. In short, a hypomagnetic field could interfere with circadian rhythms.
Speaker 1:The key message is that not only are static electrical fields important in biology, but through the property of spin, it would seem. So are static magnetic fields, both endogenous and exogenous. Much like the suggested near-infrared starvation idea, astronauts could also suffer from magnetic starvation, suggesting that for optimal health the Earth's magnetic field may need to be reproduced in some way in a spacecraft. And finally, the lack of magnetic field, they summarised, could increase oxidative stress by altering quantum spin-based homeostasis, putting more stress on cells. So if we go back to this idea of an accelerated aging phenotype that is occurring in astronauts, then we remember that it's all a manifestation of mitochondrial dysfunction and the space exposures that are associated with this are zero gravity, the loss of tensegrity, radiation exposures, the loss of near-infrared radiation, the loss of circadian or the disruption of circadian environmental cues and the loss of a magnetic field. So this diagram titled the mitochondrial canary in the metabolic coal mine summarizes this graphically about potentially what is occurring. And at the center of this diagram of a mitochondrion are changes in electron transport chain and all the different potential inputs and consequences of that. To do with these inputs, gravity, radiation, light spectra, circadian rhythm, magnetic fields, pressure and oxygen, and that's all going to influence, obviously the output. So how the mitochondria eventually regulate the nuclear genome and how mitochondrial physiology dictates the cell fate, because they can be the trigger to send that cell into programmed cell death. Potentially so. And yeah, it's fundamental what is going on to the mitochondrion, because that is going to influence the whole body's physiology. So what have they said in terms of summarising this fascinating research?
Speaker 1:As discussed, it is possible that astronauts could be developing an accelerated aging phenotype. The breadth of negative physiological effects that result from being exposed to space environments and I've abbreviated here include musculoskeletal, cardiovascular and pulmonary changes, as well as ocular problems and neurological effects. The immune system experiences profound alterations, with latent viruses reactivated. There are also changes in metabolism likely associated with mitochondrial dysfunction and the development of insulin resistance and pre-diabetes. The emphasis is mine. Note that we haven't talked about food at all. We're talking about the context in which mitochondria are existing and how issues or environmental changes that are so key to mitochondrial function when they're perturbed or disturbed, and then metabolic disease like insulin resistance and prediabetes is a downstream consequence.
Speaker 1:So, beyond humans evolved niche, this graph here illustrates how on earth these normal environmental factors they fine tune for optimal health, and those are things like gravity, the light spectrum, circadian rhythms, magnetic fields and radiation, and essentially, metabolism has evolved to essentially be stimulated and benefit from in a really hormetical, beneficial way and from those exposures on planet, planet earth. But being in space, the, as we talked about, the lack of gravity, gravity, the altered light spectrum, the completely disrupted circadian rhythms, the lack of magnetic field and all that radiation that's perhaps continuous. This is a situation where humans have not evolved and we're really going beyond what is known as our metabolic envelope when we're in space and there's no hormetic response. Our metabolic envelope when we're in space and there's no hormetic response. So they've subtitled or commented that going into space puts astronauts beyond their evolved, adaptive metabolic envelope.
Speaker 1:Some factors are required for optimal function, such as gravity, a magnetic field, near-infrared light and circadian zeitgeist, or others directly cause oxidative stress and damage, such as low and especially high linear energy transfer. The result is inflammation and potentially an accelerated aging phenotype due to disrupted electron flow, which is not immediately lethal but may increase the risk of morbidity. Some are almost instantly lethal, such as a vacuum or excessive temperatures. Some are almost instantly lethal, such as a vacuum or excessive temperatures. So what are the findings? I'm going to read them out. The report's principal finding is that space travel seems likely to induce the accelerated aging in astronauts, and this accelerated aging phenotype needs to be investigated and explained as a matter of urgency, of urgency. Furthermore, the report highlights that this space-induced accelerated aging phenotype appears to be associated with the disruption of cellular bioenergetics, which could have other, perhaps more worrying, health consequences.
Speaker 1:The only way humans may live in optimal health in space is by reproducing Earth's environment exactly, and I think that's self-evident when we consider how much of a Goldilocks zone, so to speak, earth is and how finely tuned evolution has designed us, physiologically and from a mitochondrial point of view, to these specific situations or environments on planet Earth. So here's another way of thinking about it Look at the nighttime and daytime as someone might expose themselves or be experienced on the International Space Station or perhaps on a spaceship to Mars, and that difference, that daytime and nighttime, even from a purely circadian rhythm point of view, is looking nothing like daytime and nighttime in our ancestral human experience, and what is occurring in, across, or what a normal day is on planet Earth, and those, as it relates to those environmental exposures that we discussed, you know it couldn't be further removed when we're in space. So what does this mean? What does this mean for space travel and, you know, recently, elon Musk's incredible achievement of landing the booster, the spacecraft booster, back on planet Earth. It was amazing and incredible to watch.
Speaker 1:But what I think this space report presents is quite a sobering analysis of the realities of human existence in space. And you know, this is not in any way to diminish or, I guess, discourage, but only to really be facing this plan of interstellar travel and colonisation with the most, I guess, realistic expectations. And I really think that the science says, as presented by this report by the Guy Foundation, that the idea of interplanetary colonisation is perhaps a quixotic endeavour, meaning that the amount we're asking the human body to essentially adapt, to exist in, is that environment is so different to what we need, our evolved metabolic envelope, our ancestral niche, however you want to talk about it or frame it, that the consequence or trade-off will only ever be, you know, extremely negative for anyone who chooses to put themselves in that environment, and that that's going to have to be a pretty open discussion with anyone who wants to go to mars or or go to into space, going to, uh, the moon. You have to be comfortable with the idea that you are, um, invariably and inevitably going to be shortening your life and increasing the likelihood of developing chronic disease, based on the data that we've presented the Guy Foundation has presented that I've highlighted. So how is this relevant to us on Earth and those who, in terms of treating and addressing chronic disease, which is my interest on planet Earth?
Speaker 1:And really what we're doing is that in today's society, we are replicating in many ways the space stresses that we that I've some of them that I've highlighted in this presentation, and they include radiation exposures, particularly radio frequency and microwave, a lack of near infrared radiation and a loss of circadian environmental cues. And we've done that since the invention, essentially the electrification of Earth in development and the harnessing of electricity, the invention of the AC power grid and then, even more recently, the rollout of 5G telecommunications networks, the mandating of energy-saving lighting in inverted commas, that is completely deficient of near-infrared light and is both causing this near-infrared starvation, this 21st century scurvy, but it's also causing profound disruptions of circadian environmental cues because of both the excess of isolated blue light at night, artificial light at night and the deficiency in full spectrum of red and infrared-containing sunlight during the day. And really we can use this accelerated aging phenotype curve to understand what people are doing to themselves today when they decide to work in a cubicle job that's completely windowless and under fluorescent or LED lighting, or that perhaps they choose to degrade their mitochondrial function with other environmental exposures like processed foods, alcohol or circadian disruption or a combination of all of the above. And really the goal should be, from health optimization, longevity point of view, is to get as close as possible to that far right line where we are maintaining our best health and compressing morbidity or disease into a very, very short time, right at the end of our of the maximum lifespan of our species. So and this this is another image to really hammer home the point, which is the modern human existence, our reality of our daytime and our nighttime, is looking nothing like our ancestral human experience. So I hope that was informative and interesting.
Speaker 1:I would highly recommend everyone to follow the Guy Foundation. Obviously, go to the website, read the report for yourself. It's very easily to read, it's digestible, it's not overly technical and follow the Guy Foundation's YouTube channel because, at only 1.36,000 subscribers, there's an absolutely incredible amount of information and resources on this channel. So it's a wealth of knowledge. And if you want to learn more about my I guess, intellectual journey into these topics, then check out my podcast, regenerative Health, where I've interviewed a range of experts on various topics related to interactions of light on biology, and that is my interest and what I believe is potentially up there with the most impactful movements in terms of optimal health and preventing chronic disease. If you want to learn more, then stay tuned for a recent drop, which will be artificial light and how it's causing diabetes without any food. It's really an expansion on these ideas. Without any food, it's really an expansion on these ideas.
Speaker 1:If you like this video and you want to basically interact with me, ask me questions or discuss this, then join my school group and it is an opportunity to join a Q&A, interact with like-minded people and support my work like-minded people and, yeah, support my work. Finally, I've got some courses circadian reset and solar callus, which are both designed to help educate you on how to optimize your daytime and nighttime light exposures, essentially, and circadian rhythms. And finally, uh, I am running a circadian health retreat at the end of the month. It's actually sold out, but I will be hosting more circadian retreats here in australia and potentially uh elsewhere, so follow me and if you're interested in this and you'll be able to be notified when that's happening. So, and anything and anything else, then jump on my social media or podcasts channels. These are all the information, so I hope that is helpful. And, yeah, please hit me up with questions or comments in the YouTube comments below and we'll see if I can get to some of them. So thanks for listening.
